Rocketry Chat Forum

RocketryChat Logo & Icon Yellow TRans BG 1200 x700

Forum

Hybrid Motors - Why...
 
Notifications
Clear all

Hybrid Motors - Why don't more people don't trust them?

Page 1 / 2

LenForsyth
(@lenforsyth)
Member Admin Club Member
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 58
Topic starter  

(Maybe I am a "rocket-tragic", but if you really want to feel like you were there, then I think that such clips should be played at full screen and at total volume)

 

https://rocketrychat.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/UglyHybridtest7.mp4

 

😀 😀 😀 

 

Some things just never seem to get old.


   
Quote
LenForsyth
(@lenforsyth)
Member Admin Club Member
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 58
Topic starter  

https://rocketrychat.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/1000nhybrid.mp4

 

(Sometime later in South Australia)


   
ReplyQuote
AnthonyCaracella
(@anthonycaracella)
Active Member RSO&LCO
Joined: 4 months ago
Posts: 9
 

Bit of a hybrid newbie here, but with the costs and difficulties in maintaining ready-to-go supply of DG1.3 and DG1.4 imports, is there a space for hybrids to make a bit of a resurgence?

I've had a quick look over the Contrail Rockets system, and some of it seems quite straight forward, but I have a range of queries I can think of asking, and wonder how much else I'm missing.  Is NOS loading only done at the launch pad once in launch configuration? Are additional/non-solid-compatable radio launch control systems needed? It seemed that a specific igniter was needed as well.

Just wondering if there is much experience locally with hybrids, or if anyone else might have some appetite for investigating and importing what we would need to make this happen.


   
ReplyQuote
AnthonyCaracella
(@anthonycaracella)
Active Member RSO&LCO
Joined: 4 months ago
Posts: 9
 

https://rocketindustries.com.au/nos14251-refill-pump-station-incl-stan

Like, is something like this necessary for on site GSE?


   
ReplyQuote
LenForsyth
(@lenforsyth)
Member Admin Club Member
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 58
Topic starter  

I am also a newbie on this topic - but if you prepped the hybrid rocket at home and then drove it down on the day - is there a risk you would laugh all the way to the launch site? 😀 😉 😀 

Nitrous Oxide Cartoons and Comics - funny pictures from CartoonStock

Len Forsyth

P.S.

I just could not resist that one.

Len


   
ReplyQuote
LenForsyth
(@lenforsyth)
Member Admin Club Member
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 58
Topic starter  

Concerning the supply of DG1.3 and DG1.4 - I believe that VRA may have already embarked on this Journey, but even then the cost of consumables is becoming expensive. Unfortunately, if you are seeking a low-cost hobby, consider playing bridge. 

One of the Victorians on the forum may be a better place to comment on current preflight costs.

QRS GSE

Unfortunately, this is not the first time motor supply issues have been a problem. In 2010, QRS purchased several pieces of GSE from Pratt Hobbies in the US to allow us to have a greater diversity of launches. This GSE was predominately suited to RattWorks motors and required the flyer to supply NO2.

I really do not know the fate or current whereabouts of this gear at present. Presumably, it is still sitting under a member or non-member house somewhere.

GSE MANAGEMENT

(ALL CLUBS EXIST ONLY TO SERVICE THE NEEDS OF ALL THEIR MEMBERS.)

If the club reacquires GSE, how would you suggest it be managed?

I am sure any earnest and constructive comment would be appreciated and considered.

Beyond the LCO GSE electronics, I know nobody ever runs off with a padboxes just because it was connected to their rocket.

I can, however, see that there may exist a greater risk between GSE and NO2 Bottles.

RSC & LSO Boxes

GSE CHECKLIST

In a club environment for launching hybrid rockets, besides handling Nitrous Oxide (N2O) as an oxidizer, several pieces of ground support equipment (GSE) are essential to ensure a safe and successful launch. This equipment varies depending on the complexity of the rocket, the launch site, and the specific safety regulations of the club or governing body overseeing the launch. Here is a list of typical ground support equipment required:

  1. Ignition System: A reliable system to ignite the rocket's engine at a safe distance. This often includes an electrical ignition system that can be activated remotely. Ignition for a hybrid motor system can be a little more complex than just firing off an e-match.

    For hybrid rocket engines, which use a combination of solid fuel and liquid or gaseous oxidizer, the ignition system is a critical component that must reliably initiate combustion under various conditions. The best ignition systems for hybrid rockets provide consistent, dependable ignition and can be scaled to the size and power of the specific engine. Here are some of the most effective ignition systems used in hybrid rocketry:

    1. Electrical Igniters: These are among the most common and reliable ignition sources. They can be simple resistive elements, such as nichrome wire or igniter plugs, that heat up when an electric current is passed through them. Electrical igniters can be coated with pyrogen, which ignites easily and aids in igniting the fuel-oxidizer mixture.

    2. Pyrotechnic Igniters: Similar to fireworks, these igniters use a chemical reaction to produce a hot, energetic flame that can ignite the hybrid rocket motor. They can be initiated electrically or with a fuse and are known for their robust ignition capabilities.

    3. Laser Ignition: This advanced technique uses focused laser energy to ignite the fuel-oxidizer mixture. Laser ignition can precisely control the ignition timing and location but requires more complex equipment and safety precautions.

    4. Spark Ignition: This method uses a high-voltage spark to ignite the fuel-oxidizer mixture, similar to the ignition system in internal combustion engines. Spark igniters can be reused, making them a cost-effective option for testing and repeated launches.

    5. Hypergolic Ignition: In this system, a hypergolic fluid (a substance that spontaneously ignites upon contact with another substance) is introduced into the combustion chamber containing the oxidizer and fuel. The immediate chemical reaction that occurs can reliably ignite the motor. However, hypergolic fluids are often toxic and require careful handling.

    6. Torch Igniters: Torch igniters produce a flame or hot gas jet directed into the combustion chamber to initiate ignition. They can be powered by a separate, smaller combustion process using the same or different propellants as the main engine.

    The choice of ignition system depends on several factors, including the specific design of the hybrid rocket, the propellants used, safety considerations, and the environment in which the rocket will be launched. Electrical and pyrotechnic igniters are popular for their simplicity and reliability, making them suitable for various hybrid rockets, from amateur projects to more advanced research applications. For larger or more complex systems, laser, spark, and torch igniters offer advantages in control and repeatability. Safety, reliability, and simplicity of operation should guide the selection of an ignition system for any hybrid rocket launch.

  2. Fueling Equipment: For hybrid rockets, this includes the equipment for handling Nitrous Oxide and the safe loading of the fuel into the rocket motor. This could involve pumps, valves, and tanks specifically designed for the fuel used.

  3. Pressure Tanks and Regulators: For pressurizing the oxidizer tank and ensuring a consistent flow of Nitrous Oxide to the combustion chamber.

  4. Remote Control and Safety Systems: Equipment to control the launch process remotely, including safety systems to abort the launch if necessary and vent the NO2 from the rocket

  5. Power Supply: High Voltage ignition systems, primarily derived from neo-signage transformers, produce more than 3000 volts. In these litigious times, we must consider our duty of care in protecting and supervising our members and preventing staff from accidental contact with these high-voltage sources. While considering the implications of critical electronic equipment, including telemetry and deployment.
  6. Launch Authorization and Range Safety: Not equipment per se, but essential components include clear communication protocols, flight clearance, and a range safety officer (RSO) to oversee the launch and ensure all safety procedures are followed.

Our club may have additional requirements based on their specific protocols, the rocket's complexity, and local State regulations.

It's crucial to consult broadly with other TRA Prefectures currently conducting Hybrid launches and adhere to the best practices and safety guidelines established as prescribed by the Tripoli Rocketry Association. 

In all our activities, safety should always be the top priority in any rocket launch operation.

Please let us know your thoughts ...

 

Len Forsyth


   
ReplyQuote
BrendanHawkins
(@brendanhawkins)
Eminent Member Club Member
Joined: 4 months ago
Posts: 24
 

Interesting topic guys.

As we're now Tripoli affiliated (and insured) what is the Tripoli position and requirements for Hybrid HPR rocketry? Would we even be insured for flying these type of rockets?

AMRS Level 1 - PML Callisto May19 H100W 3600ft
AMRS/Tripoli Level 2 - 3" AGM33 Pike Aug20 J270W 3300ft
First Airstart - Thales Starstreak Mar22
First Cluster - Banana Republican Jun23 3xE20 1856ft
Impulse tally - 11,019NS since May 2019


   
ReplyQuote
LenForsyth
(@lenforsyth)
Member Admin Club Member
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 58
Topic starter  

From my reading of the TRA Safety Guidelines, I do not believe there exists any great conflict. However as with most organisational guidlines I feel they are a little short of guidance and long on liability avoidance.

Once again it would be up the the club to determine it's own procedure and checklists in line with the type of GSE or other infrastructure available on site.

 

Len Forsyth

 


   
ReplyQuote
JeremySim
(@jeremysim)
Eminent Member RSO&LCO Club Member
Joined: 3 months ago
Posts: 6
 

@anthonycaracella I have a 38mm Contrail Hybrid Set, The rocket is filled with N2O once on the pad after arming recovery electronics. The fill is completed via a solenoid (not that same as the one on the website you provided) and this is normally completed by the LCO via the launch control box.

On the Contrail set there is a vent line off the top of the motor that that will vent when the N20 tank is full .
To ignite the motor I use a slug Blue Thunder propellant and and normal igniter wrapped around the fill line to ignited the solid and let the N20 flow (have a look at the contrail user guides available on their website, they have pic that will explain it)

As far as costs are concerned, expect to spend around $1000 (if not more) to get the needed solenoids (fill and dump), a Nitrous bottle (you will also need to locate someone to refill the bottle)

Once you have all of the needed GSE equipment you will need to purchase all of the motor hardware, I purchase the Full 38mm Kit ( https://contrailrockets.com/product/38mm-complete-motor-system-2) this was $500USD excluding postage

The 38mm kit allows you to fly G to J motors.

The big benefit to hybrid motors is that the motor cases and  fuel grains can be shipped by anyone and do not require and special permits, as they are not classified a motor until pressurized with N2O. Most fuel grains cost around $25USD each (and are sold in packs of 3)

One downfall of the contrail hybrid is that the motors are long. Most of the time I will build a rocket with a particular motor length in mind.


   
ReplyQuote
LenForsyth
(@lenforsyth)
Member Admin Club Member
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 58
Topic starter  

Thanks, Jeremy, for the updated advice on this topic.

How often do you fly on your hybrid gear?

I see your prices are in $US, so I guess there really are no inexpensive ways to fly rockets (unless we all join George Catz and fly WaterRockets)

If anyone would like to give a shoutout to George and pass on my regards on my behalf, please do so. I see his AirCommand YouTube Channel is still going strong. If you have not seen his Channel, you really must. The engineering he can do with just a PET bottle is amazing. I think this is a brilliant example of how it is not about what gear you have—but how you use it that counts.

Besides, nobody ever burnt down their launch site with a runaway water rocket. Mind you, we have quite a few floods at Cedar Grove.


   
ReplyQuote
JeremySim
(@jeremysim)
Eminent Member RSO&LCO Club Member
Joined: 3 months ago
Posts: 6
 

@lenforsyth Not as often as I should, However with the price of solid motors it will become more frequent when my stash of solid motors runs out


   
ReplyQuote
LenForsyth
(@lenforsyth)
Member Admin Club Member
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 58
Topic starter  
Jul 19, 2010

Australia's First Tribrid Rocket Launch Liquid Fuel / Nitrous Oxidizer at QRS, TRA launch

A tribrid rocket is an advanced rocket propulsion system that combines three different types of propellant: solid, liquid, and gas. This tribrid approach aims to leverage each propulsion type's advantages while mitigating their disadvantages, resulting in a more flexible, efficient, and potentially safer propulsion system.

Traditional rocketry generally categorises propulsion systems into solid, liquid, or hybrid types. Solid rockets use solid propellants, which are simple and reliable but offer less control over the thrust once ignited. Liquid rockets use liquid propellants, providing precise thrust control and higher efficiency but at the cost of complexity and potentially higher risks due to the volatile liquids involved. On the other hand, hybrid rockets use a combination of solid fuel and liquid or gaseous oxidizer, aiming to strike a balance between the simplicity of solid rockets and the controllability of liquid rockets.

The tribrid rocket goes further by incorporating a third type of propellant into the mix. This could involve, for example, using a solid fuel, a liquid oxidizer, and a gaseous or liquid secondary fuel or oxidizer that can be introduced into the combustion chamber to modify the combustion process, improve efficiency, or adjust the thrust during flight. This approach can offer several benefits:

  1. Improved Performance and Efficiency: By optimizing the mix and state of the propellants, tribrid rockets can achieve higher specific impulse (a measure of propulsion efficiency) and better overall performance.
  2. Enhanced Control and Versatility: Tribrid systems can provide more precise control over the rocket's thrust and direction, facilitating complex maneuvers and adjustments in flight.
  3. Increased Safety and Reliability: The ability to dynamically adjust the combustion process can lead to safer operations by reducing the risk of catastrophic failure and improving the engine's response to changing conditions.

Tribrid rockets are still mainly in the experimental and development stages, with research focused on exploring their potential advantages and overcoming technical challenges, such as the complexity of managing three different propellant types and the engineering of versatile combustion chambers and fuel delivery systems.


   
ReplyQuote
Matt
 Matt
(@crom)
Member Admin
Joined: 4 months ago
Posts: 41
 

Australia's First Tribrid Rocket Launch

Yep, I remember that launch! As far as Brisbane based hybrid rockets go, Simon is the only person I know of with experience. I don't think he has been involved with rocketry for close to 10 years now though. He's probably wondering why his old YouTube video is getting hits again... Although, there was a university group that did at least one hybrid launch around the same time frame. Len may remember better than i can...

Tripoli #13468 L3
Tripoli Prefect #131
QRS President


   
ReplyQuote
LenForsyth
(@lenforsyth)
Member Admin Club Member
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 58
Topic starter  

@crom 

Don't let all this grey hair fool you ... Matt - Are you inferring I am old?

Anyway, even though several of my little grey cells may have deserted me over the years, I do recall a university group launching at Millmeran (or there about back in 2011

Sep 12, 2011

I don't recall any of the rocketeers' names or what happened to them after they completed their engineering degrees. I am not even sure if the launch area was registered with CASA.

I only remember that Jamie Anderson and his Uni crowd and Ashley Stonehouse used to launch there.

AIRSPACE

It must have had some level of approval as I thought it restricted airspace to about 5000 feet ( which to me seemed to be a long way to go for the same altitude we had at Cedar Grove). 

Was it ever officially classified and came up on ATC maps?

I also wonder if it could be re-classified to a higher altitude. If so it may be an interesting prospect to revisit.

Millmeran is certainly a lot closer than Westmar.

Does anyone know what the airspace is classified as in that area.

Len

( Can someone fetch me a blanket? - it must be time for my afternoon nap with all this excitement)

 

 

"Len may remember better than i can..."


   
ReplyQuote
LenForsyth
(@lenforsyth)
Member Admin Club Member
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 58
Topic starter  

Apr 10, 2011

I think Ashley Stonehouse also flirted with Hybrid Rockets at Cedar Grove before parting company with the club back in 2011.

(Some more successful than others)


   
ReplyQuote
Page 1 / 2
Share:
Scroll to Top